Episode 184: Getting Rest

In this episode of the Leading and Learning Through Safety podcast, Dr. Mark French explores the critical link between psychological safety, rest, and physical safety in the workplace. Traditionally, safety professionals begin with physical safety as a foundation, but Mark challenges that order by highlighting emerging research suggesting psychological safety—particularly the ability to truly rest—is foundational to overall well-being.

Referencing a meta-analysis from the Journal of Occupational Psychology, Mark discusses how earlier studies indicated vacations often fail to provide adequate rest. However, newer research shows a positive trend: people are learning how to rest more effectively, leading to improved psychological safety. Mark emphasizes that true rest looks different for everyone—some recharge through activity, others through solitude—and it's essential to identify what genuinely replenishes your energy.

He also reflects on how organizational culture plays a significant role in whether employees can actually disconnect. Toxic or unsupportive environments can sabotage recovery and lead to burnout, which not only harms individuals but amplifies risk in physical safety. Fatigue and disengagement at work can be precursors to unsafe behaviors, especially when employees are merely surviving rather than thriving.

Ultimately, Dr. French urges leaders to consider safety as holistic—encompassing physical, mental, and emotional well-being. He reminds listeners that burnout and apathy are the enemies of engagement and safety, and that promoting genuine rest is a vital, often overlooked component of a strong safety culture.

The episode concludes with a personal invitation to the Kentucky Governor’s Safety Conference, where Mark will be speaking on culture and safety.

Transcript

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This week on the podcast, we're talking about psychological safety. I know we've always mixed it in this week, we're going to focus on that in the needs of rest for good safety. With our team this week on the podcast, you Mark, welcome to the leading and learning through safety podcast. Your host is Dr Mark French. Mark's passion is helping organizations motivate their teams. This podcast is focused on bringing out the best in leadership through creating strong values, learning opportunities, teamwork and safety. Nothing is more important than protecting your people. Safety creates an environment for empathy, innovation and empowerment, together, we'll discover meaning and purpose through shaping our safety culture. Thanks for joining us this episode and now here is Dr Mark French. You You. Hello and welcome to this episode of the leading in learning through safety podcast. Thank you for joining me. I deeply appreciate being part of your podcast rotation, or maybe this is the first time, and so happy you joined me this week, we're going to talk about something a little bit different, but not too far different. Usually we start off with physical safety being the key to developing further into psychological safety. Today, I actually am going to switch that around a little bit. I came across a really interesting article, and I didn't, I'll be honest, I read the abstract long enough to go, Okay, that's interesting to see that we're seeing some new trends, and let's talk about that, because it's psychological safety first, and I truly believe that leads, in this case, to physical safety. So let's talk about it. The Journal of Occupational psychology, great journal article came out. They did a meta analysis looking at other research articles that looked at how refreshed do people feel when they come back from vacation. Now, early evidence had suggested that a vacation is really not as effective at giving someone rest or allowing someone to recharge as it really should be, and there can be a lot of reasons for that. I mean, if you ever come back from vacation felt more tired, more work was on your table. You're worried about the work. Or maybe vacation was to get out there and do stuff for the family and do stuff with the kids and be busy, busy, busy. And maybe that didn't work well, or maybe it was too quiet and you needed some some relaxation, weekend warrior kind of work. So there's a lot of psychological safety that comes from being able to rest effectively. And in this case, the the research, the bodies of research put together had had recognized that maybe it's not as effective. Well, this was a newer analysis that wanted to take because now it's being studied more and more and more about the effects of vacation, on psychological safety, the effects of rest, essentially, are you able to effectively rest when you're away from your work, and whether that be a long term vacation, like a few days off, or whether it be just rest, in general, how does that affect you? And there this after more research had been done, another meta analysis looked at it and said, Actually, we're seeing a trend now in the bodies of research that says that it can be effective, that people are beginning to use it in a way that creates effectiveness. Now I am going to take one step back and say that I am an assessment junkie. I love personality assessments. I think they all have to be interpreted and talked about and debriefed and unpacked in some form. I think they give you some really cool insights overall. I think they can also be misused a lot. It takes some work to really digest the material when you start looking at an assessment of any kind, and it helps to maybe even be able. To repeat something similar, to get confirmation through it through various and there's a bunch of ways to look at it, a bunch of opport opportunities, a bunch of different assessments that are out there. Any of them can give you some insight of who you are and what you're about and how you function. Now, part of any assessment will tell you what recharges you. That's part of kind of even when we look at extraversion versus introversion, it's about rest. It's about what gives you, what feeds you when you need it. Do you need quiet rest? Do you need to be around people that you love and know and and bring Let that energy fill you up. You've got to know what feeds you, and that takes some introspection, and that's a lot deeper than I am going to go on this podcast, but it does, I will say the most important thing about getting rest is knowing what gives you rest. Is it working in your yard? Is it being with your kids? Is it taking a walk? Is it watching TV and not just zoning out? But is it something that actually gets you the ability to kind of bring yourself back. Maybe it's reading a book, maybe it's playing video games. Now, anything in excess can be detrimental, but to know what gives you rest is the first key, and also to give you what gives you anxiety when coming back from rest? Do you is there methods or ways that you can avoid that. And does your organization allow you that freedom? I've worked with many organizations that I would say are not good, toxic, even to where you're shamed for taking that time off, and we read about it. There's article after article news stories of people who talk about these abusive workplaces and how you can't get away from it, and how it pushes you to never get the rest, but to burn out. And ultimately, that creates a very unstable psychological safety for all those in the organization, and the organization cannot continue to function well when that's happening, because it depends on people, and if you're burning out your people, you get very short term gains, but long term, it doesn't work out at all. But let's go back to the article, where it talks about that we're actually beginning to see, and maybe it is because people recognize that they were coming back from vacation and not feeling it like that. I need a vacation for my vacation, and this is something I'm I'll be very personal with this. I've had to switch up in my life because I always thought the vacations had to be like you do as much as you can. You pack as much in. You do that. And honestly, my wife gets recharged from that, like when she goes to an amusement park. It's like everything has to happen. It all my daughter the same way, very much the same. They need every moment. Let's do let's go. Let's get it all. I want to see it all, do it all. Me and my son are a little bit different. We prefer, you know, you go out and do a little bit, you explore, you see some things, you learn some things, and then you kind of come back and take a rest, maybe enjoy the local food, and take a break and breathe for a while. Not have to go, go, go, but just sit back and enjoy the moment of where you're at. You've got to know what it takes to be that way. And it took me a long time to recognize the fact that it was not good to come back from a vacation and be like, Oh my god, I can't wait to get back to work, because it's got to be more calm than what I'm going through here. And as a safety professional and as someone in people work, I've gotten to where I don't like the adrenaline spike like I used to, because it feels like every time I get a phone call or an email from certain people, my adrenaline spikes anyway, because I know it's not going to be good news. And so I've gotten, I've gotten to where a roller coaster just doesn't do it for me. It's like, you know, I've already spent all of that anxiety and adrenaline already. I don't really need any more to make me feel whole. It's important, though, that we get enough rest to be able to function properly. Now, on the next half, when we come back after the short break, I'm going to tie this into physical safety if you don't have enough rest, if you're if you're mentally and even physically not ready for the day that's ahead. It. It creates possibilities for it's a. Great amplifier for unsafe behavior in the workplace. We have to recognize that, that these safety is is totality. It's the total person, and I believe in that it's a holistic view of person, of people, of the organization. Let's talk about that when we come back on the second half of the leading and learning through safety podcast, you are listening to the leading and learning through safety podcast with Dr Mark French, dsda Consulting. Learn you lead others. The Myers, Briggs Type Indicator is an amazing tool. Problem is that it can be easily misinterpreted. Dr Mark French is MBTI certified and ready to help you discover your inner strengths. The MBTI assessment can help with team building, stress management, communication, conflict management, and so much more individual and group sessions are available to help you discover what makes you great. For more information, visit us on the web, AT T, S, D, A consulting.com and welcome back to the second half of the leading and learning through safety podcast. This week, we're talking about rest, rest cycles and being able to get the rest you need. And this all stemmed from an article I read saying that in looking at the body of knowledge that's out there right now, early indicators said that maybe vacation isn't as effective as it should be. Now, with new research being actually driven by looking at this phenomenon, we're seeing that maybe it's actually more beneficial than we thought. So it's actually it is becoming more helpful, even though it's not perfected and not as good as it should be. It's at least coming up. We're we're seeing improvement, and it's probably because people are taking control of themselves. It also could be general generational differences. We have to, I think there's a lot more we have to research to really understand what's happening and is it cultural? Is it, is it more working wise, or is it personal? How? Why are we seeing some changes here as we continue that body of knowledge and that body of research? But I want to focus now on the physical safety of it. We as a person, and I say this so often, we as a person, we bring our total selves to work, regardless whether the company wants us to, accepts us, to opens up to us to do that. We do it. We can't help it. We are who we are, and we're going to bring that to work. And if it means that we're fatigued, or if we're tired or if we are burned out, we're bringing it. And in those cases, that can create significant personal risk. If someone is tired or burned out, or doesn't have enough rest, or is not getting the right rest, or not getting their vacation, or not using or the vacation is being used not for rest, then what you create is an amplification of risk. So just imagine you're already tired, you're coming in and you're having to do it again, and you don't maybe you have limited vacation. That's the way we are in the United States is limited vacation, and you're thinking about, okay, when, when will be not next one be, when can I get my next time off? And that focus distracts from the safe behaviors or the critical thinking we need to keep ourselves safe. That's a it's very powerful when you think about how complicated people can be when we bring them to work, I'm complicated. I get it and I see it every day, and I wish there was more I can do now. One I think we as a collective can talk more about it, of making sure our people get the rest they need, that we're watching out for them, that we recognize the signs, but sometimes it's cultural in the organization itself. And I was having a discussion with someone about, you know, how do you cope when things are not so good at work? How do you a professional discussion on, like, looking back at my career, looking back at all the situations I've been in, and even with their situations and and just, you know, reminiscing, essentially, but talking about like, how do you cope when these types of things are happening? And one of the interesting items is when you think about coping, and you think about psychology, the question came up is that in this, if the organization is abusive, there is no coping, there's only surviving and trying to get something else. And I mean, that's saying a lot when you decide to, like, actually deem a culture of organizational work abusive. I mean, we've used the word toxic. We've seen these words in the press, abusive, toxic, those. Types of words, but when we actually label it, and we say no, that behavior, the organizational behavior, could be that and very much should be labeled that, is there any even coping, or are we truly accepting the fact that this is going to be bad and it can't be good without significant, significant energy of change. And then I even put I go further. It's like, does an organization like that even care about safety in the first place? So would we even have to worry about keeping people safe because they may not even care because of that? Or maybe they have that safety person who's trying their best to be that person there to help and struggling and having difficulty, or an HR person who's trying to manage the people in trying to like, yeah, I get it. And I still remember long time ago that it was not a good it was it was a tough situation we were in business wise, and I remember we were having kind of an all hands meeting at the site, and everybody was complaining, complaining, complaining. And even the plant manager stood up and said, Look, I'm just here until I can find something else too. I think everybody's jaw, just like the room went silent, just because they're like, Oh, did he say that? It's like, wow, we just admitted the situation we're in is not good. We're all trying to get out, we're all trying to find the change, and we're just, we're just all hanging on together, and in those organizations, how do we continue? There's no thriving, there's only surviving, and we have to survive through first focusing on getting out of it safely. I know that's tough, but we revert back. Let's go back to Maslow. There's food, water and shelter. Got it through having the job. Maybe struggle, but we got the job. The next one is safety. We have to feel safe, and we have to figure out a way that, even despite all of what's going on, that we back up and go we cannot be detrimental to human life. And if it means that someone needs to get more rest to be able to do that, we try to find ways. I know I've digressed a little bit, but this really, this hit me hard when I read this about, you know, how, how effective is vacation, and how effective is rest, and are people even getting it? Because the study only looks at those who are getting it, and there's so much more to look at, to think about, what creates that additional risk of just being apathetic? I think the ultimate, the ultimate, final step of like to me, when it gets there, is apathy. And I've always one of my things is I love to see passion in the workplace, either good, bad, whatever you can turn if you've got energy, you can direct energy, you can use energy. But if it's gone, if there is no energy to create that energy that's really difficult, and that's when when apathy sets in. You have a very difficult task of creating a workplace that will even try to focus on safety. Thanks for joining me on this episode of the leading and learning through safety podcast. Just a reminder, coming up in August, there is the Kentucky governor's safety conference in Owensboro, Kentucky, my home state, always a pleasure, always an honor to be part of of that. I'll be speaking there about creating culture and using safety to create that, that ultimate culture for your team. Always happy to be speaking in my home state, if you're around, it's a great conference. I wish you the very best in the next week and until next time we chat, stay safe. Thank you for listening to the leading and learning through safety podcast. More content is available online at www dot tsda consulting.com all the opinions expressed on the podcast are solely attributed to the individual and not affiliated with any business entity. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes. It is not a substitute for proper policy, appropriate training or legal advice. You This has been the leading and learning through safety podcast. You.